[USML Announce] FAAB Fun
Andy Klein
anrklein at gmail.com
Mon Aug 4 09:51:24 EDT 2008
My view is that if Bay and Griffey were actually in the system and listed as
available for bidding, we should count those bids. Jeff ... I understand
that you are trying to remain very neutral since you were the only bidder on
Griffey. But you shouldn't have to forfeit a deserved boon -- you get
Griffey at $5, and he might well be a keeper next year. So ... in my
opinion, the players should be awarded as I suggested in my previous note:
Bay to Jim, Tex to Rich, Nady to me, and Griffey to Jeff. As I said before,
we do need to sort out salary issues, with the basic issue being whether an
unsuccessful contingent bid increases the salary of a successful primary
bid.
All that said, I am just trying to help sort things out and will abide by
any group decision. But we should have *everyone* weigh in quickly, because
the decisions could have a big impact on the title race. Can we vote on
whether to allocate the players as I suggest and also vote on the salary
issue?
-Andy
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 8:38 AM, Jeff Winick <jhwinick at aol.com> wrote:
> Andy,
>
> Griffey was my 3rd bid, so if we try to guess as to what the system would
> have done we're still left with the issue of how to set salaries, like, for
> example, Nady If we let the system work, as is, then we would ignore my
> bids for Bay and Griffey and Jim's bid for Bay and voil? you have an easy
> and obvious answer and no question about the interjection of subjectivity
> into the process.
>
> Jeff
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 4, 2008, at 7:08 AM, Andrew Klein <anrklein at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Jeff-
>>
>> If you are the only player who bid on Griffey, you get him at $5. That's
>> how are rules work. I also think that Jim B. should get Bay. He clearly
>> made the highest bid. The question (as with Nady) is salary. The only info
>> I don't see from earlier correspondence is detail about your bids. Were
>> they contingent after Griffey? If so, the problem is easily solved because
>> your subsequent bids don't matter. If they were non-contingent, then we
>> need to know the amounts and decide how they impact the salary consequences
>> of my Nady bid and Jim's Bay bid.
>> Again, just my two cents.
>>
>> One other thing. I suggest that in September, a few of us make "bids" on
>> the system to test how it handles certain scenarios. We can undo the
>> transactions after the experiments.
>>
>> -Andy
>>
>> Jeff Winick wrote:
>>
>>> I, too, agree with Andy, but would focus on his point about the system
>>> having perhaps worked properly.
>>>
>>> Despite the fact that it costs me Griffey, I think we ought to consider
>>> leaving well enough alone and default to the website's results, I.e. Leave
>>> Bay and Griffey bidding to next week and leave the rest of the results
>>> alone. To do otherwise requires us to make assumptions about what the system
>>> would have or should have done and that makes me uncomfortable.
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Aug 4, 2008, at 6:12 AM, Andrew Klein <anrklein at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Sorry, Brad. No luck. I'm back.
>>>>
>>>> I think that FAAB bids should be processed as if the system had worked
>>>> as we anticipated. This means that we follow our constitution, except where
>>>> it would require the commissioner to unwind the system's allocation of
>>>> players. During the year, we recognized that this would mean that a higher
>>>> contingent bid trumps a lower primary bid. If I have sorted out the
>>>> emails correctly, this would result in the following: Jim gets Bay. Rich
>>>> gets Tex. I get Nady. Jeff gets Griffey. (Jeff's message read: "I had
>>>> bid on Griffey, Nady and Bay, not Tex. But my bids for Griffey or Bay
>>>> weren't processed.")
>>>>
>>>> We never reached an agreement on how salary would work in this
>>>> situation. Jeff's position is that salary should be impacted when a primary
>>>> bid competes against contingent bid. My opposite view is that we should
>>>> follow our constitutional rule and not have contingent bids inflate salaries
>>>> of successful primary bids. My reasoning is that the commissioner needs to
>>>> alter salaries anyway -- so this is not something where we allow the
>>>> automated system to save work for Mark B. These are both reasonable
>>>> positions. We should vote on this and then have precedent on the point.
>>>>
>>>> Like Jim, I continue to oppose a complete do-over, which would hurt
>>>> those of us who made good (OK, lucky) bidding decisions.
>>>>
>>>> All that said, I'll go along with the league consensus however that
>>>> turns out.
>>>>
>>>> -Andy
>>>>
>>>> PS: On the snafu ... is it possible that the system did not process Bay
>>>> and Griffey because they had not appeared in games by Friday midnight? That
>>>> would make sense. Tex and Nady both appeared earlier in the week. Bay and
>>>> Griffey did not play for their teams -- I think -- until Saturday.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brad Jansen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Let me identify something you guys can do: coin toss or cage match.
>>>>> End this quickly. And Klein, go back out of town. Now.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 6:58 PM, Richard E. Robbins <
>>>>> RERobbins at itinker.net <mailto:RERobbins at itinker.net>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If the system just runs from top to bottom until you run out of
>>>>> money then
>>>>> we should be able to simulate what happened given a complete set
>>>>> of bids and
>>>>> a properly functioning CBS site.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not saying that is what we should do -- that's for the rest of
>>>>> you to
>>>>> decide.
>>>>>
>>>>> I clearly have a conflict because if I understand what Andy is
>>>>> saying I
>>>>> think I end up with Tex.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please understand that I'm not advocating that we do one thing or
>>>>> another --
>>>>> merely trying to identify things we could do.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Rich
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: announce-bounces at usml.net <mailto:announce-bounces at usml.net>
>>>>> [mailto:announce-bounces at usml.net
>>>>> <mailto:announce-bounces at usml.net>] On Behalf
>>>>> Of Andrew Klein
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 4:50 PM
>>>>> To: USML Announcements
>>>>> Subject: Re: [USML Announce] FAAB Fun
>>>>>
>>>>> Just back from out of town. Here's my two cents.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have been doing contingent bidding all year, and the system is
>>>>> not that
>>>>> complicated. It processes bids in the order you enter them, and
>>>>> then stops
>>>>> when it cannot do so any longer. This occurs when the player
>>>>> chosen for
>>>>> waiver is gone (because he was waived through a prior bid -- the
>>>>> later bids
>>>>> are essentially contingent). Or it would happen if someone ran
>>>>> out of FAAB
>>>>> money. Salary cap is not part of the system.
>>>>> It is up to the player who wins the bids to adjust rosters accordingly
>>>>> before Sunday noon. Also, as everyone knows, due to our "eBay"
>>>>> system, Mark
>>>>> B. manually adjusts salaries of players purchased through FAAB.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know what happened with the Bay bidding. But it sounds
>>>>> like Jim B.
>>>>> should have won him, but then ran out of money for his other bids.
>>>>> I think
>>>>> that I am due Nady. The only question to me is his salary -- i.e.
>>>>> is it $30 or $50-something based on Jeff's contingent bid. Jeff
>>>>> accurately
>>>>> described our disagreement on that point, and I am happy to
>>>>> elaborate on my
>>>>> opinion if that becomes relevant.
>>>>>
>>>>> In any case, I strongly object to tossing out all bids and
>>>>> starting over
>>>>> next week.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Andy
>>>>>
>>>>> jhwinick at aol.com <mailto:jhwinick at aol.com> wrote:
>>>>> > Guys,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Just when it looked like it would be easy....
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Here's the problem with Jim's bids. It is impossible to discern how
>>>>> > the system would treat them. It is clear that you can bid
>>>>> > contingently on the same player since the system will disregard all
>>>>> > other bids for the same waived player once he has been replaced, but
>>>>> > it is not at all clear how the system would handle bids that could
>>>>> > theoretically take you well over the salary cap. I've read the
>>>>> system
>>>>> > rules again this morning and the real challenge is determining where
>>>>> > the system starts its evaluation of bids. In Jim's case that would
>>>>> > have implications for who gets whom, what their resulting salaries
>>>>> > will be and what player Jim will waive depending on what player he
>>>>> > gets. Jim had the theoretical high bid on two different players.
>>>>> > Because the system didn't process the Bay bids, there's no way
>>>>> to know
>>>>> > whether (or IF) it would have awarded Jim either Bay or Nady. I'm
>>>>> > afraid that Jim's bids appear to be exactly the kind of complication
>>>>> > th at Mark B was talking about.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I obviously have a vested interest, so I'm going to pass the
>>>>> torch to
>>>>> > someone else. I don't think there's going to be a "good" answer for
>>>>> > how to handle this one.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I do, however, have one request, that I suppose is largely moot at
>>>>> > this point. PLEASE send out your FAAB bids no later than Saturday
>>>>> > morning. Although FAAB is almost over and hopefully the system will
>>>>> > work going forward, it would really help to have all of this
>>>>> > information as soon as possible. Thanks.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Jeff
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>>> > From: Richard E. Robbins <RERobbins at iTinker.net>
>>>>> > To: 'USML Announcements' <announce at usml.net
>>>>> <mailto:announce at usml.net>>
>>>>> > Sent: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 7:14 am
>>>>> > Subject: RE: [USML Announce] FAAB Fun
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Since roster moves haven't become effective, is there a problem with
>>>>> > Jeff just emulating what the system should have done with these
>>>>> bids?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I don't think you should be penalized for not having access to email
>>>>> > yesterday just because the web site didn't process things properly.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Just my two cents.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > *From:* announce-bounces at usml.net
>>>>> <mailto:announce-bounces at usml.net>
>>>>> <mailto:announce-bounces at usml.net <mailto:announce-bounces at usml.net>>
>>>>> > [mailto:announce-bounces at usml.net
>>>>> <mailto:announce-bounces at usml.net>
>>>>> <mailto:announce-bounces at usml.net
>>>>> <mailto:announce-bounces at usml.net>?>]
>>>>> > *On Behalf Of *Jim Barrett
>>>>> > *Sent:* Sunday, August 03, 2008 6:54 AM
>>>>> > *To:* USML Announcements
>>>>> > *Subject:* Re: [USML Announce] FAAB Fun
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Sorry guys for the delay but I was travelling yesterday and didn't
>>>>> > have access to e-mail. I don't want to mess things up further so am
>>>>> > willing to accept Jeff's allocations but this is how I bid:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > $74 on Bay
>>>>> > $69 on Teixiera
>>>>> > $50 on Nady
>>>>> >
>>>>> > My FAAB remaining was $74 (full amt of bid on Bay). I didn't know
>>>>> > how/if contingent bidding worked and figured if the system
>>>>> didn't want
>>>>> > me bidding this way it would stop me. Otherwise it would treat the
>>>>> > other two as contingents. I picked different players to drop
>>>>> for each
>>>>> > (didn't think of using the same). For Bay, I had dropped my
>>>>> open slot
>>>>> > (for waiving Tabata earlier). For the other two it was Albers and
>>>>> > Gabbard. Obviously, I'd prefer that the open spot be used
>>>>> rather than
>>>>> > eliminating a player from my reserve roster.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > With all that said, I think technically I should have won Bay but am
>>>>> > willing to accept Teixiera if that causes the least amount of
>>>>> > angst/trouble.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Jim
>>>>> >
>>>>> > */Jeff Winick <jhwinick at aol.com <mailto:jhwinick at aol.com>
>>>>> <mailto:jhwinick at aol.com <mailto:jhwinick at aol.com>>>/* wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Let's try this again. Bay is a Berliner at $52, otherwise the
>>>>> > message of this afternon was an accurate statement of the
>>>>> bidding
>>>>> > outcome.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Jeff
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Aug 2, 2008, at 8:33 PM, Bbuddhas at aol.com
>>>>> <mailto:Bbuddhas at aol.com>
>>>>> > <mailto:Bbuddhas at aol.com <mailto:Bbuddhas at aol.com>> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> correction i checked my bid it was and still is $51
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> In a message dated 8/2/2008 8:09:26 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
>>>>> >> jhwinick at aol.com <mailto:jhwinick at aol.com>
>>>>> <mailto:jhwinick at aol.com <mailto:jhwinick at aol.com>> writes:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> If that isnt Buddha yanking my chain after I spent the time
>>>>> >> to sort this out, it will unfortunately mean we have to
>>>>> sort
>>>>> >> out the whole contingency issue. I'll post something
>>>>> further
>>>>> >> tonight about our options.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Jeff
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Aug 2, 2008, at 7:50 PM, Bbuddhas at aol.com
>>>>> <mailto:Bbuddhas at aol.com>
>>>>> >> <mailto:Bbuddhas at aol.com <mailto:Bbuddhas at aol.com>> wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> put a $56 bid on Bay
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> In a message dated 8/2/2008 6:15:19 P.M. Central Daylight
>>>>> >>> Time, jhwinick at aol.com <mailto:jhwinick at aol.com>
>>>>> <mailto:jhwinick at aol.com <mailto:jhwinick at aol.com>> writes:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Here's what I know so far:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Andy bid his entire budget on Nady. I spoke with him
>>>>> >>> this morning and he had no contingent bids. I
>>>>> spoke to
>>>>> >>> Brad and he didn't bid. So, pending presently unknown
>>>>> >>> bids from either John or Buddha here are where
>>>>> things stand:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I had the high bid on Bay at $56. He was my first
>>>>> >>> choice, so we can end all of the discussion about
>>>>> >>> contingent bids and can treat this bid as
>>>>> non-contingent
>>>>> >>> and disregard the other two bids that I made to
>>>>> replace
>>>>> >>> Shelley Duncan. The next highest bid was $47 from
>>>>> Rich,
>>>>> >>> so he will be awarded to me at $48.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> $56 - JHW
>>>>> >>> $47 - Rich
>>>>> >>> $40 - Doug
>>>>> >>> $35 - MBB
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> The highest bid on Teixeira was by the Calamari
>>>>> who bid
>>>>> >>> $69. The next highest bidder was Rich at $48, so he
>>>>> >>> will be awarded to the Calamari (in fact, he
>>>>> already has
>>>>> >>> been) for $49.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> $69 - Jim
>>>>> >>> $48 - Rich
>>>>> >>> $17 - MBB
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> The highest bid on Nady was Andy's at $64. That was
>>>>> >>> Andy's entire budget. The next highest bidders were
>>>>> >>> Rick and Doug at $29, so Nady will be awarded to the
>>>>> >>> Klein Nine (in fact, he already has been) for $30.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> $64 - Andy
>>>>> >>> $29 - Doug
>>>>> >>> $29 - Rick
>>>>> >>> $20 - MBB
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> There don't appear to have been any bids on
>>>>> Griffey, so
>>>>> >>> he will be available next week.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Please let me know if you see a mistake. And John and
>>>>> >>> Buddha, please let me know asap if you placed bids
>>>>> this
>>>>> >>> week.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Thanks,
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Jeff
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> >>> From: Doug Shabelman <doug at burnsent.com
>>>>> <mailto:doug at burnsent.com>
>>>>> >>> <mailto:doug at burnsent.com <mailto:doug at burnsent.com
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> To: announce at usml.net <mailto:announce at usml.net>
>>>>> <mailto:announce at usml.net <mailto:announce at usml.net>>
>>>>> >>> Sent: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 5:46 pm
>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [USML Announce] FAAB Fun
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Andy's in a car and not by a computer. I am out in
>>>>> >>> beautiful Grant Park at Lollapolooza where the next
>>>>> >>> President is rumored to be introducing Wilco this
>>>>> evening.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I believe I bid 40 on Bay, 29 on Nady but cannot
>>>>> confirm
>>>>> >>> 100%. Someone can call Andy at 3174426981 but
>>>>> let's not
>>>>> >>> make it Rich- I'd like to have a fighting chance....
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> DS
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> >>> From: announce-bounces at usml.net
>>>>> <mailto:announce-bounces at usml.net>
>>>>> >>> <mailto:announce-bounces at usml.net
>>>>> <mailto:announce-bounces at usml.net>>
>>>>> >>> <announce-bounces at usml.net
>>>>> <mailto:announce-bounces at usml.net>
>>>>> >>> <mailto:announce-bounces at usml.net
>>>>> <mailto:announce-bounces at usml.net>>>
>>>>> >>> To: 'USML Announcements' <announce at usml.net
>>>>> <mailto:announce at usml.net>
>>>>> >>> <mailto:announce at usml.net <mailto:announce at usml.net
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Sent: Sat Aug 02 17:42:54 2008
>>>>> >>> Subject: [USML Announce] FAAB Fun
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Let's try and get this FAAB stuff wrapped up.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> In order for Jeff to handle processing we need to know
>>>>> >>> what everyone bid.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> So far, Jeff has information from me, Mark B and
>>>>> his own
>>>>> >>> bids.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> It appears that Andy and Jim placed bids, but we
>>>>> need to
>>>>> >>> know the specifics.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Please guys -- chime in with your bids or confirm that
>>>>> >>> you didn't bid.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> We need to get this wrapped up promptly.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Thanks,
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> -- Rich
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> announce mailing list announce at usml.net
>>>>> <mailto:announce at usml.net> <mailto:announce at usml.net
>>>>> <mailto:announce at usml.net>>
>>>>> >>> http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >>> It's time to go back to school! Get the latest trends
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>>>>> >>>
>>>>> <http://shopping.aol.com/back-to-school?ncid=aolins00050000000007>.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> announce mailing list
>>>>> >>> announce at usml.net <mailto:announce at usml.net>
>>>>> <mailto:announce at usml.net <mailto:announce at usml.net>>
>>>>> >>> http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >>> Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your
>>>>> >>> budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> <
>>>>> http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000
>>>>> 017>.
>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> announce mailing list
>>>>> >>> announce at usml.net <mailto:announce at usml.net>
>>>>> <mailto:announce at usml.net <mailto:announce at usml.net>>
>>>>> >>> http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> announce mailing list
>>>>> >> announce at usml.net <mailto:announce at usml.net>
>>>>> <mailto:announce at usml.net <mailto:announce at usml.net>>
>>>>> >> http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >> Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
>>>>> >> Read reviews on AOL Autos
>>>>> >>
>>>>> <
>>>>> http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000
>>>>> 017>.
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> announce mailing list
>>>>> >> announce at usml.net <mailto:announce at usml.net>
>>>>> <mailto:announce at usml.net <mailto:announce at usml.net>>
>>>>> >> http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > announce mailing list
>>>>> > announce at usml.net <mailto:announce at usml.net>
>>>>> <mailto:announce at usml.net <mailto:announce at usml.net>>
>>>>> > http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > announce mailing list
>>>>> > announce at usml.net <mailto:announce at usml.net>
>>>>> <mailto:announce at usml.net <mailto:announce at usml.net>>
>>>>> > http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>>> >
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> > -- It's time to go back to school! Get the latest trends and gadgets
>>>>> > that make the grade on AOL Shopping
>>>>> > <http://shopping.aol.com/back-to-school?ncid=aolins00050000000007>.
>>>>> >
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> > --
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > announce mailing list
>>>>> > announce at usml.net <mailto:announce at usml.net>
>>>>> > http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>>> >
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> announce mailing list
>>>>> announce at usml.net <mailto:announce at usml.net>
>>>>> http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> announce mailing list
>>>>> announce at usml.net <mailto:announce at usml.net>
>>>>> http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> announce mailing list
>>>>> announce at usml.net
>>>>> http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> announce mailing list
>>>> announce at usml.net
>>>> http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>> ce at usml.net <mailto:announce at usml.net>
>>>>
>>>>> http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> announce mailing list
>>>>> announce at usml.net
>>>>> http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> announce mailing list
>>>> announce at usml.net
>>>> http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>> info/announce
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> announce mailing list
>>> announce at usml.net
>>> http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> announce mailing list
>> announce at usml.net
>> http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>> __________
>>
>>> announce mailing list
>>>>> announce at usml.net
>>>>> http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> announce mailing list
>>>> announce at usml.net
>>>> http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>> info/announce
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> announce mailing list
>>> announce at usml.net
>>> http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> announce mailing list
>> announce at usml.net
>> http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>
> _______________________________________________
> announce mailing list
> announce at usml.net
> http://lists.usml.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>
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